PCGP Episode #139: Bugged
Kristen Salvatore hosts this wonderful podcast which touches on topics you will want to hear about. These include but are not limited to: Our thoughts about the Diablo lll brouhaha - American McGee’s Grimm release details - EA Sports, “It’s in the game” unless you’re on PC - listener questions, movie recommendations and playlists. PCGP “It’s in the pod…cast.”
July 3rd, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Herez mah pudcast!!!
July 3rd, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Downloading now. Glad to here the rest of the crew is back after last week’s absence.
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:06 pm
That petition is a freakin’ joke. Not dark and gorey enough? Did these people watch the game play video where the Siege Beast bites the player in half and leaves the entrails on his face? and that Tomb in the beginning was pretty damn dark. I’m sorry, I played Diablo 2 and 1 and these people are whining about a game they haven’t even seen 1% of. Blizzard is going to deliver regardless of this petition.
July 3rd, 2008 at 8:36 pm
yay I was praying I’d have something to listen to. I bet there’ll be some Diablo 3 talk..as I am downloading Diablo II from blizzard right now..:)
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:12 pm
“Don’t raid me, bro!” is solid t-shirt material.
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:22 pm
But yeah, casual games-wise…The Sims fits into the discussion pretty well, it’s a good example of people labeling a game casual as it becomes more successful, I think. It’s probably the domestic context, too. Because it’s not represented in an entirely alternate reality or time, but mirroring parts of the real world, people might be apt to label it a casual experience.
I don’t think The Sims isn’t inherently a casual experience — the things you’re doing are relatively simple (directing your dude or gal around the house, placing items), but I’d argue that the level of investment is what’s significant, what gives The Sims the opportunity to be played “more than” casually. I tend to think of casual games as disposable experiences — I can play Lumines or run a few laps in GRID to unwind (or as a distraction from Half-Life, which I’d say is less easy to play casually), or I can hunker in to get a high-score or unlock something. It’s all about how invested (emotionally, not temporally) you are — if you’re planning our your Sims’ futures when you hit your pillow, you’re probably edging toward the hardcore end of the spectrum.
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:55 pm
I think that petition sites the exact number of gothic emos in the world.
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Anyone wanna start a new petition telling Blizzard to ignore the first one?
July 3rd, 2008 at 11:07 pm
I think you guys were trying to define the wrong thing, there is no such thing as a casual game or a hardcore game, at most a game can be hard core focused or casual focused.
trying to define a game by complexity doesn’t really work either because it’s pretty clear that complexity is a matter of opinion not fact. to say peggle is flatly casual game because you simply point a ball and shoot is simply wrong. it’s a pretty complex game if you actually take the time to try and determine your path and then you need to take bonus pegs into account and need to decide when to go for your power bonus, need to decide which groupings of orange pegs should be taken out first. there is a ton of depth to the game and that’s easy to prove because if you just go and play it “casually” your not going to get anywhere near the scores that people who are really into it get.
no such thing as a casual game, if the first time you play a game you can be as good as a person who has played it for hundreds of hours then that would be casual, but name one game that you cannot get better at by devoting large amounts of time to.
on the diablo petition at first I thought it was stupid, but after looking at the gameplay demos I think I agree with them, diablo 3 just looks like world of warcraft 1.5 the art is almost exactly the same. Pretty disappointing they didn’t make the effort to hire some other talent for the game because the whole cartoon look really doesn’t fit at all in that series. I’m sure the game is fun and it does look nice, but it absolutely is not a true sequel to diablo. which I guess is understandable since all the people who originally worked on diablo 1/2 nolonger are at blizzard.
it’s kinda looks like diablo but for 13 year olds.
July 3rd, 2008 at 11:15 pm
sounds like the petition creators are gothic or emo…
but i do think the character models and armor resemble wow too much
@ kristen… wow = casual
overrated game…
July 3rd, 2008 at 11:26 pm
Can some one post the link for the Diablo 3 art petition ? I’v been an avid fan of the Diablo series and I’m not too keen on the glossy art style either
not broody enough for the doom and gloom of fighting diablo etc.
July 4th, 2008 at 12:02 am
Not to sound like an ass or anything but do you think Blizzard will change the whole art direction because of the petition? I’m not against it or anything I just have a differing opinion.
July 4th, 2008 at 12:24 am
Wait, how can you have a Diablo 3 Episode without The Vede? I was hoping to hear him…
July 4th, 2008 at 12:35 am
Supa.Fresh I agree. If you those clowns think that a remakes is taking place because of thier bitchfest they’re totally insane.
July 4th, 2008 at 2:16 am
I don’t suppose its possible to put a link to the podcast file in the RSS? No offense to the people that post here but I’d rather enjoy life more.
July 4th, 2008 at 2:29 am
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?d3art2&1 sorry for the double post but if you want to sign a counter petition Supa.Fresh someone already made one.
July 4th, 2008 at 2:55 am
I’m sorry but I won’t sign that theres 5 or 6 of them floating around and its sorta badly organized and what not, I’ll sign one if one starts standing out than the others. And I don’t want to be a hater but this article is sort blunt/honest/ some of you will probably just get a good laugh… http://www.bingegamer.net/index.php/2008/an-open-letter-to-diablo-iii-fanboys
(sorry for the quad posting)
July 4th, 2008 at 3:46 am
ok this one is a little bit more successful just started not too long ago and it has 896 sigs http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/petition-sign.cgi?DIII
July 4th, 2008 at 7:58 am
Whether you like the art style or not, online petitions are worthless. Not only do they never actually do anything, assuming your highly subjective personal taste should be valued the most by the team who probably had a hundred discussions about the art style when they started working on the game three years ago is downright ridiculous.
July 4th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
lol yeah I think any game dev that takes these things seriously is a little TOO devoted to it’s “fans”.
July 4th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
This kind of whining is the same thing that goes on on EA’s Command & Conquer boards all the time. When screens of C&C 3 started coming out there was whining from just about everyone about this unit or that unit or even the environments were too bright along with thousands of petitions to change this and change that and for the most part it didn’t do a damn thing.
Saying that online petitions never work isn’t entirely accurate either, enough people managed to whine loud enough on the C&C 3 boards to get the size of the Tiberium crystals changed.
I think Diablo 3 could stand to have more color that the previous games myself, with the exception of the second act Kurast which was kind of a Middle East\Egyptian themed area the rest of the game was a bit too dark and bland. The dungeons should be dark and depressing however and if that’s not good enough for these people then they need to get over it because they all know they’re going to buy the game not matter what, and they’ll end up loving it not matter what.
July 4th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
The whole issue about males making male spore creatures kinda relates to the scene in the comdie movie SUPERBAD. I guess you can find a clip online…
July 4th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
@ninja_joey
Yeah, somebody should recreate those scenes just using Spore. xD
July 5th, 2008 at 12:21 am
I wanna sign TheVede’s petition…
July 5th, 2008 at 11:40 am
best show in the world
July 5th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
while you guys joke about the Diablo 3 thing i have to admit i find myself agreeing at least somewhat with the petition
Cookie cutter games are a real danger of the WoW effect. Developers thinking clones are better than real inspiration is a true danger.
Diablo 3’s initial screens are worrying. While the petition will likely not do anything. It should be a red flag for any adult gamer. Diablo 1 was a desperate struggle all the way through even in multiplayer. The art the levels everything as you kept going deeper made it feel like you were racing against the clock. Diablo 2 + expansion was for the fate of the world and the deeper you got the more you knew it. The final battle in the worldstone chamber made it clear just how dangerous failure was. Asking for graphics that give that kind of feeling is not too much to ask imo.
As for the other comments on WoW: WoW is too damned easy. Flat out. People who have cut their teeth on Eve, Anarchy, and other games basically tell the noobs who go overboard with the complaints to go back to WoW and with good reason.
If Diablo 3 ends up closely resembeling WoW its going to fail. Those who started this petition represent a lot of people still playing Diablo 2+ expansion. (which is still pretty large.)
While i am all for new engine and upgrades and such. But the fact remains: Clones=bad
New ground=good.
As for EA: It must die.
July 5th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
good podcast
July 5th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
“If Diablo 3 ends up closely resembeling WoW its going to fail.”
Wow Hyperion that’s some real talent there, you’re able to predict failure of a franchise game just by looking at it’s art style. And what makes it even more amazing is Diablo III isn’t even out yet.
That is some freaking talent!
/sarcasim
July 5th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
The idea that Americans would rather play Americans than foreigners really doesn’t fly, I think. There are plenty of shooters that don’t have an American hero as the protagonist.
July 5th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
“Wow Hyperion that’s some real talent there, you’re able to predict failure of a franchise game just by looking at it’s art style. And what makes it even more amazing is Diablo III isn’t even out yet.”
You must be amazed by each and every prediction you hear as most are made before an event takes place, what with them being predictions ‘n all.
July 5th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
@qrter: It’s the fact that he’s predicting a failure of one of the biggest game franchises ever. I SERIOUSLY doubt Diablo 3 will fail even if they don’t change the art style. Everyone on that petition will most likely buy it day 1 anyways. They have no conviction with their BS petition. And the Diablo 3 screens are from a demo made to show the game off. I disagree with the whole petition thing… They think they know the whole art direction by watching the demo and looking at screenshots from said demo. Who knows what Blizzard has in store for the rest of the game aka the other 99.9% remaining.
July 5th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
The thing with the petition is that, yes, the petition will get nothing done directly. However, if the fans of the game sit idley by and just wait for D3 to hit the shelves, Blizzard will make the game to cater to their own interests. The petition is simply a form of communication to tell Blizzard that a significant amount of fans of the franchise do not like the aesthetics of the game as of now.
Granted this is the early stages of the game, but if no complaint was voiced, the likely-hood of changing the look would drastically decrease. Personally, I will buy the game either way; I would be more satisfied if the look paid homage to the previous titles, though.
July 5th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
That’s the point! Your complaining is meaningless because you’ll buy it either way! That’s why we say your complaints mean nothing! GET IT!? And you never stop to think that a lot of the fans LIKE the addition of color i.e. all the counter petitions? Even the Vede disagrees with your petition who is a serious Diablo fan. The only thing this petty whining would make me want to do if I were Blizzard is to cancel it.
July 6th, 2008 at 10:40 am
I don’t think you quite understand. You’re complaining that other people are complaining and that it won’t resolve anything. So by your logic, nobody would ever voice their opinions if they are going against the norm.
In the end it is Blizzards game, but games turn out so much better when the developers listen to the community and react, rather than trying to slide them under the carpet. I didn’t even sign said petition, but I think it is reasonable concern.
July 6th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
I don’t think its reasonable, they have barely seen any of the game and they’re already drawing conclusions and saying that the rest of the game will be like this.. and some of these examples they’re putting out are plain garbage… they basically made it black and white and darkened everything else and made it look like shit.
I leave you with these 2 articles… I’m done beating this dead horse…
http://www.bingegamer.net/index.php/2008/an-open-letter-to-diablo-iii-fanboys
http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/diablo-hate-internet.php?page=2
July 6th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
I think it’s kind of nutty to say, “This game looks too much like a wildly successful game by the same developer, and thus will fail.” Kind of counter-intuitive, don’t you think? Blizzard’s WoW art style as proven that it’s excellent for making a game accessible to the masses (it’s easier to tell what’s going on when everything has color to it rather than flat blacks, greys, browns and greens), which is where the money is. And while Blizzard certainly wants to make a game that their fans will be happy with, it is in their best interest to make a game that lots and lots of people are going to want to play, not just the hard-core purists.
July 6th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
PC Gamer: it’s not only the ‘purists’ and ‘die hard fans’ that are against the new art direction. Sorry to say this, but you are Diablo noobs. You just don’t have a clue what Diablo has been all about in the past. You haven’t played it enough.
There are in fact two petitions that are in favor of the new colorful art direction. They have about 1k and 2k votes. And then there’s the petition against the new art direction. It has 36k votes. People obviously just want Diablo to be what it did best in the past: a dark and scary infested dungeon hack and slash game. Dressing it up with all the pretty colors, flowers and rainbows is like putting a marine in a tutu. Diablo will be reduced to a WoW-style version of Titan Quest.
I have an idea for your next podcast: invite Greg over (long time no see) and let him give his opinion about Diablo III, I’d love to hear it.
Sources:
Against color: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?d3art
Color ftw: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?d3color
Color ftw: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?DIII
July 6th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Just to clarify my own opinion:
Don’t get me wrong, I know Blizzard will make Diablo III a great game. It’s just that I’m disappointed it won’t spark some of the fond memories I have of the previous Diablo games because of the lack of similarity: the dark and gritty feel and atmosphere was what made Diablo Diablo for me, and for many other players.
July 6th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Yes, only Greg could have the wisdom and insight to understand the indisputable fact that because there’s a rainbow and some flowers in the game in an outdoor area somewhere, it means the game won’t be any fun. So let’s see what he has to say on the subject:
http://www.thenextbench.com/hpg/blog/article?message.uid=4883
Better make that three petitions in favor. Anyway, I’d say that 36,000-50,000 is about the number of hard-core change-averse purists I’d expect for a series like Diablo, but just a drop in the bucket of what this game will sell. Think about it - if just 1 in 10 of the people who play WoW look at Diablo III and think, “Hey, that’s something I might like to play!” That’s 1,000,000 sales. Subtract those 36,000 - actually, let’s make it 18,000, because we all know at least half of those guys are going to buy it anyway - and you have a drop in a very big bucket.
July 6th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
I sincerely hope that the bright colors and rainbows and stuff are there to create contrast as stated by Diablo 3’s lead producer, Keith Lee — “We feel that color actually helps to create a lot of highlights in the game so that there is contrast”.
I have high expectations (as it is a Blizzard game), and I hope they don’t try to, or appear to try to, mesh the Warcraft and Diablo universes together. I know it’s just an art style, but I have to agree with Starlyght; it wouldn’t feel like Diablo without all the blood, guts, dank dungeons and such. Blizzard is making a moderatly competetive game to World of Warcraft, and by making it similar to WoW, potentially drawing the same audience. It needs to be different (as it no-doubt will be with the action based gameplay and such) but by drawing them in with a similar art style to WoW, players will go in expecting sort-of the same type of game. Maybe hoping for WoW-lite.
I have the same beef with Fallout 3 too. I think Bethesda is totally just using the name to get the Fallout audience as well as the ‘modern/console RPG’ audience. I just hope it doesn’t turn into an FPS like STALKER or something, but I digress.
I’m not even that big of a Diablo fan. Never got past nightmare mode, and never really played on B.net. However, I still would like to play Diablo 3, not Diablocraft. I fully believe that Blizzard can pull this off, what with the contrast statement I quoted earlier. If they don’t, though, the Diablo series will be dead. Thats not to say it will be a good game, it will just not be a good Diablo game.
July 6th, 2008 at 11:58 pm
It is all silly. Diablo 3 will be a great game no doubt. Those retouched screens looked like D2 instead of a more up to date game. I popped in D2 again and let me tell you, I would be disappointed in graphics like that for a game 8 years newer. GIVE ME MORE COLOR AND MORE EFFECTS!! All the wait and it is finally here and looks fantastic and yet some are unhappy with it?
I would like to request that you ask the Vede if he woiuld do a special reapearence in the mag or podcast somehow to preview or review Diablo 3. I know it probably isn’t possible but I thought I would ask.
And thanks for the Vede link!
July 7th, 2008 at 2:02 am
When you are dealing with sequels there are always some people who will whine and bitch because the new stuff isn’t exactly like the old stuff that they want an updated version of the old stuff.
Unless what they’re whining about is actually a valid point that a MAJORITY of people are complaining about, like say they’re going to make it so you can only play Diablo III with a gamepad instead of using the mouse, the whiners are better off being ignored by the community because all it does is drag any meaningful discussion of what’s to come into one flame war after another in every thread that has anything to do with the game and even some that don’t.
July 7th, 2008 at 2:14 am
@Stryc9 There was not nearly as much whining and bitching for Diablo II when it was announced, because it lived up to its predecessors legacy. And you can’t just ignore an army of ‘whiners’ that rivals that of Mordor (seriously…). Most people that are not against the new art direction haven’t even played Diablo enough to know what it is all about. I know Blizzard put a lot of hard work into Diablo III as it is right now, and I know it’s going to be a great game. It’s just that it could have been better, at least for the Diablo fans of the past.
July 7th, 2008 at 3:07 am
“And you can’t just ignore an army of ‘whiners’ that rivals that of Mordor (seriously…).”
No, just a handful of mouths that have managed to gather a few followers that will post the same crap incessantly, for more on this see the C&C3 and Red Alert 3 boards, there are a handful of jackasses that complain and bitch about everything that EA is doing making it impossible for anyone else to say anything constructive, that’s what’s going on here. I’ve sunk a lot of hours into Diablo II and Lord of Destruction. I have no problem with the new art style.
In fact I don’t see where these people get off whining when Diablo II had some pretty bright and colorful settings itself. The whole second act takes place in a fucking desert that while it’s sand colored it’s still bright and colorful and the dungeons in the second act are also shades other than gray, green, brown and black. Is that to say that the whole second act of Diablo II is the weakest part of the game?
July 7th, 2008 at 4:03 am
Stryc9: Act II was actually one of my favorite acts. I’m not saying darkness and desaturated colors define Diablo at all (neither does the petition), but flowers, rainbows and cartoonish WoW-inspired stylized graphics do kind of dampen the atmosphere for me. Look, all I’m saying is that you can see where those 36k people are coming from. “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire.”
Dan S: there’s no need for the hostile attitude, you have to admit Greg has been the bigger Diablo player at PC Gamer, so I was genuinely interested in hearing his opinion. I read his article and I kind of agree with him. I understand where both sides are coming from. It must be pretty hard for Blizzard to please both the established Diablo community as well as peaking the interest of their existing WoW fanbase.
July 7th, 2008 at 9:53 am
Starlyght: I am a vet D1 and D2 player and a WoW player for about 3 years and when I saw that game play Video, I certainly didn’t get a WoW feeling while watching it. I saw a more intense action packed D3. I saw dark corners, I saw the environment moving at my passage. Walls and balcony railings crumbuling, curtains flaping, bodies bursting apart! Why on earth wouldn’t a Diablo fan want to play this! Music building in cresendo until the end of a battle. And dread folowing as the battle ended and finding out that it wasn’t done.
I feel people are saying WoWish graphics only because Blizzard makes WoW. How can you not make swords and armor cool looking and not have it start looking like someone elses sword or flaming hammer.
July 7th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Dracoress: no I know, it looked pretty good and my first reaction also wasn’t “hey this is way too colorful”. My first reaction was more kind of “oh cool”, but not quite “awesome!”. I know it’s going to be a great game, Blizzard won’t stand for any less. It wasn’t until people pointed out what it could have looked like, how it could have reminded us stronger of the previous Diablo games that I was struck by nostalgia and longing for Diablo III to be more like the original Diablo. I’ll still play the heck out of Diablo III though
July 7th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
We need 100% more Gary Whitta
July 7th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
Before I listen to this podcast - does the crew reveal that Sean Molloy (formerly of GFW magazine) is the new PC Gamer editor?
July 7th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
@y00tz - nope. If it helps any, we can confirm that Sean is not joining PC Gamer.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:28 am
TheVede, if you are out there, great petition! His hits the head on the nail exactly. The man who once shouted “BING!” is correct.
July 8th, 2008 at 2:12 am
@terapwn - Gary does a great podcast over at Games Theory but he is on holidays atm, although I think he is back this week.
July 8th, 2008 at 7:42 am
Is Whitta ever going to come back to the PCG Podcast?
July 8th, 2008 at 11:28 am
I have to join the pro-”colors” camp for the simple reason that dark and brooding does not a perfect horror palate make. Take STALKER for instance. Quite possibly one of the most terrifying games I have played in a while, but not because there are zombies and mutants everywhere (well the non-animal ones that is), but because one moment the sun is shining and the breeze it blowing in my irradiated Zone, and then I get to my mission point and I realize I am staring at a bulkhead of which a single alarm light is going off at the bottom, and an eerie howl comes up to greet me.
Without even entering the “dungeon”, my poopsock has been filled.
The contrast between light and darkness is what makes us fear the dark in the first place. Or if you are a vampire, then it is the light you fear.
Wait, I just figured it out! All these people asking for dark, brooding (its brooding, not broody you morons) environs are vampires! They are prejudiced towards the light! It all makes sense now…
Time to go get my sticks.
And sorry color haters, you make fun of an unorganized “pro-color” petition segment when your own petition would barely pass an elementary school equivalence test for persuasive writing. If you are going to say something, say it with finesse and cunning. I don’t care how much you want something, if you present it like Miss South Carolina detailing the necessity of geography, then you aren’t helping your cause.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
My thoughts…
Diablo 3: People should wait until more is released on what is actually in the game before making such silly statements. I have purchased nearly every game Blizzard has made and have never had a poor experience. I have faith they know what they are doing. If people like the art in Diablo 2 but want a different gaming experience then they should just download a mod.
Blizzard movie: I always hoped that Blizzard would create their own animated films using the style from their cutscenes for years. I remember getting excited when Blizzard contested the naming of a Vin Diesel movie years ago that was initially named Diablo. Bliizzard forced the issue claiming their copyright covered films if I remember correctly. But alas, no Blizzard animated Diablo movie. Yet.
WW2 German perspective: I don’t think shooting at Allies would be that controversial since we do that in multiplayer anyway. Even the US Army provides a game that lets you be the bad guy and shoot at Americans. I think the problem with the premise is how do you present a game where you play on the side that has no hope of winning? If you made it possible for the Germans to win then you have an alternate history game at that point, not that would be bad or anything. You could only focus the game on battles that the Germans won to have a satisfying ending. Although I’ve enjoyed the mods where you are given a defensive position against overwhelming odds with no hope of survival just to see how long you last.
July 8th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
kristen started a trend called sporno lol
July 8th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
omg they blocked the petition
July 8th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
oh ya and by the way i think its the community that makes a game hardcore like cs doesnt have to be hardcore but it is beacause the community has a certain way that every1 wants to u to play its almost like the game has a list of laws and it could difinatly be considerd a hard core game
July 8th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Actually padan, before Kristen had the incident there were already 100+ penis shaped creatures in Spore Creature Creator due to the people downloading the trail version before the full version became available.
I guess you could say though that Kristen popularized it by being well known in the gaming community.
July 9th, 2008 at 12:19 am
Man I pissed my pants laughing………go check it out, can’t wait for this movie to come out
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=eSpCWJnnWVI
July 9th, 2008 at 7:04 am
I am kinda disappointed and certainly lost some respect for the PC Gamer crew and especially Kristen.
It is perfectly legitimate not to agree with the people who are signing these petitions and you may have different tastes and like the Diablo III art as seen in the material released. It is also perfectly fine to say you don’t see any difference at all or that you welcome a change because you are not attached to the old style.
But from PC gamer staff, of all people, I would expect to understand what it is like to be passionate about a game or franchise and how it can make perfect sense to be very sensitive about every issue concerning the games you love and a sequel you are waiting for the last 8 years. Yes, even petty and not important issues like artwork, atmosphere and style.
One of the main things going for the previous Diablo games (aside from them being fun and addictive) was their soul. The unique atmosphere, the thrilling style. Take that away from Diablo III and it will be not much more than Titan Quest (not that TQ is a bad game but it was not Diablo).
I am sorry but not everyone is a big fan of of the WoW artwork and I don’t care how many million subscribers the game has (I am one, by the way). Does the phenomenal success of WoW mean we now need every single game to look like an over saturated, grotesque cartoon for 14 years old retards?
You may disagree but calling them whiners, making fun of them and dismissing it as nonsense is certainly not an attitude I would expect from PC gaming enthusiasts, sorry. Two thumbs down for PC Gamer. Boooo.
July 9th, 2008 at 10:05 am
@barduck: I think you’re overreacting just a tad. I mean Logan did even come to their (your) defense at the end and I don’t think they called them whiners at any point. They just poked a little fun. I don’t see what this “thrilling environment” is that you speak of. The graphics are so low-tech it wasn’t even funny. I seem to recall fighting in bright deserts, on top of white, snowy mountains and the like. People saying Diablo 2 was dark is like saying Pong was dark because of its black background. I’m probably gonna catch hell for saying that, but you guys haven’t even seen the 5% of the game.
July 9th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Sorry Barduck, but the fact that they STARTED A PETITION TO REMOVE COLOR was the point of the matter. Don’t you see the irony and hilarity in the situation? Thats what they are making fun of really. I find the argument as a whole to be hilarious, overly dramatic, and petty. Some people will attach themselves to a notion just to do so. But the PCG crew I find to be spot on when they point out the absurdity of starting a pathetic online petition with a terrible spokesperson who initiated it. Doesn’t speak well for the credibility of the fans. I was personally offended, as if my arguments were being taken over by a politician who only cares about him/herself and took my concern to unjustified levels. And I thought the trailers look great.
The mafioso reactionary tactics you “pro-color” people take is amusing as well, accusing people of being sellouts, suck up, and even Blizzard employees. Its just shameful of the community. It is one thing to dissent, its another to make yourselves look like asses in the process.
July 9th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Never played Diablo, so I can’t comment about that, but I have to say that much of the artwork in WoW is absolutely gorgeous. And what’s impressive is that each zone and area has its own style and impact. I challenge anyone to watch herds of animals go by in Nagrand or wonder at the carved interior of Blackrock Mountain and think that the artwork in WoW is poor. There are times when I stop playing the game and just look around and enjoy… it’s well worth it.
July 9th, 2008 at 11:28 am
I don’t see a petition to remove color. I see some people who summarized the entire list of arguments in the petition to one mocking “look, they want to remove color from D3, what a bunch of weirdos” line and then dismissing it as a ridiculous claim based on that twisted perception of the petition.
Let’s leave the argument whether D3 is indeed lacking in style and art direction or not. I do agree that there is not nearly enough information released to judge and it still may turn out fabulously styled at the end.
But why can’t you all accept the fact that there are people who loved the Diablo series and waiting years for D3 and are now worried that the game may not keep the artistic spirit of its ancestors and turn into an ugly WoW clone? This concern may be void but what’s wrong with voicing it? And doing it as early as possible when there may be a slight chance that someone would listen?
And for those who just say “PETITION TO REMOVE COLOR!”, go read the thing first:
http://www.petitiononline.com/d3art/petition.html
They have some valid points and I agree with many of them, even if some or all of them will turn our to be just paranoid concerns eventually.
July 9th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
@ Barduck again: 1.) I am being facetious when saying the petition is anti-color. It is basically the entire more colorful art style they are afraid of. I have read the petition, watched the gameplay, and I still believe they are afraid their shit-brown and gray view of the original Diablos. It does not justify what it said, nor does it really prove anything. Nor could it with a complete lack of data.
2.) The “anti-colors” rag on and on about how they have a right to opinion, and then they engage in infantile mockery of those who bring constructive criticism to the board. That does not engender understanding. To counter, I find the OMG BLIZZARD ALWAYS WILL BE AWESOME defense of the art style to be ridiculous. And I also think you are one of the few “anti-colors” to actually not engage in the frivolous atmosphere of Diablo 3 art negotiation.
3.) Continuing on from 2, there is a difference between opinion and helpfulness. I think Tom Cruise is a curse ridden form of torture that is out to ruin all movies and life. That’s my opinion, but someone might find him to be an angel send from Zeus to save all of mankind with his stellar acting ability in action movies. The sad part? We both have a lot of substance to go on, which unfortunately, not a single complainer or defender has on Diablo 3.
4.) I don’t know why I numbered these, since I am just going to continue on from 3.), and shall be titled: The Art of Persuasion vs Opinion. Having an opinion is great. Not being able to understand why someone disagrees with you and why your opinion is getting made fun of is not. The petition fails in one aspect, it is a horrible expression of opinion. Not only is it riddled with horrible grammar and spelling that could have used some healthy editing (I edit every post even to a degree, it takes me maybe ten seconds), and there is no excuse for a group claiming that their enjoyment is being threatened to let such horrible thing let by. Next, they are unorganized in their belief, making them sound like they are whining instead of possessing a true concern. A petition is not normally used for persuasion, its used to show support behind an established argument. Instead here, it is being used for the opposite, establishing an argument to Blizzard, and if it is to be used so, it must be persuasive and comprehensive. Which it not only fails to do, but is omitting a generous amount of data that has yet to be seen, let alone evaluated.
That is why it is hilarious to me.
But I also find movies like Hostel hilarious so I guess take my words with extreme caution
I also realized I made an error in my previous post in the last paragraph. I meant “anti-color” as opposed to pro-color. I fail.
July 9th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
One thing I would like to mention is one argument I don’t like is people saying they prefer to play on the couch when it’s easier and easier to hook up a PC to a large TV and play it on the couch if you want. Even back in the day you could have gotten a video card with TV out and hook it up to those old big screen TV’s.. of course the resolution wouldn’t have been ideal for a PC gamer.
Anyway, I’m glad Kristen mentioned that you can easily hook up a gamepad to the PC. I don’t like the argument of, “If it plays better with a gamepad then you might as well play it on a console”.
By the way, American McGee’s Alice came out in 2000 and it was a Quake III Arena engine game. It wasn’t just the art style that made it look good back then. It also had beefier graphics than other Quake III Arena engine games back then. It required a P2 400 and most other games before it running on that engine required less. I remember because I was poor and couldn’t afford to upgrade when the game was just released.
July 9th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Also, its my birthday so you have to agree with me damnit. No rebuttals allowed!
Also, this aggregious example of a double post, along with a large dose of narcissism
July 10th, 2008 at 12:44 am
Supa.Fresh you rock, you were the only person here that understood my first post was laced with sarcasm. qrter failed.
July 10th, 2008 at 2:53 am
anyone thinking this issue will just go away along with the hardcore enthusiasts who don’t like the new direction has forgotten that the first starcraft got a similar reaction from fans back in 1997, and blizzard responded by creating a graphically gritty and awesome rts that still holds up today. so thank the fans for piping up!
starcraft 2 also elicited such concerns from starcraft fans for being “too colorful and cartoony” and blizzard responded again with a more realistic, gritty and overall faithful graphical overhaul.
Unfortuantely I will have to disagree with the PCG staff on this issue; Diablo and Warcraft are distinctly different games, and I’d like to keep them and those styles that way. I think that distinction will keep fans of both franchises happy in the long run.
Original Starcraft 2:
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/9940/starcraftii200801170147lq4.jpg
Starcraft 2 as it looks now:
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/4854/starcraftii200805271022jv2.jpg
http://i31.tinypic.com/2zta5o7.jpg
here is a link to the picture of what D3 looks now (top) and what the petition wants (bottom) and honestly I felt much more nostalgic for the diablo franchise when I saw the bottom photoshopped version.
Diablo 3 will be a good game regardless, but it will be an awesome game if they remained more faithful to the distinct visceral, realistic and gritty feel to the dungeons of Diablo 2. In fact, the main reason I stuck to diablo 2 over other rpgs, even recent ones, is because of that realistic, non-warcraft-like atmosphere that no rpg to this day I have been satisfied by.
July 10th, 2008 at 2:57 am
hey where has gaz gone???
July 10th, 2008 at 9:56 am
Grimm seems similar to is awesome but short mod for half-life 2 http://www.playflipside.com/ .
July 10th, 2008 at 11:07 am
@Baikalic: I risk being a misinformed jerk without sources to back me up, but if you can look at those two different SC2 shots, the first one looks like the base for the lighting of the graphics, while the second looks like the detail has been applied. From my experienece, thats how good graphics are done, starting with the simple, then detailing as time goes on. When SC2 was announced, they mentioned heavily that it was a playable build, but not a complete build by far, so I must assume everything was being touched up. The simple start will always look goofy. Unfortunately I am at work right now, but I have some production shots from Crysis on my comp showing the difference of the human models between the early design and the detail design.
I have the same feeling for DiabloIII, and I absolutely hate that “comparison” pic of D3. The first one looks great, not WoWy or cartoonish at all, while the second one removes all sorts of wonderful detail and lighting effects in favor of, you guessed it, crappy shit brown. I am quite sure that if blizzard wanted to keep the light radius effect, they could do it a hell of a lot better than the old games version without resorting to killing their art pallate. Again, I am quite sure D3 is a couple years away, and that it is going to be refined heavily as more and more detail and effects get added in.
July 10th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
@Barduck
I appreciate where you’re coming from. You’re right, I didn’t have my diplomat hat on last Thursday…but I think that was borne of being somewhat disappointed in the PC gaming community for lashing out so publicly at a game that *isn’t done.* One of the things I hear often from nascent PC gamers is that they find the community to be very insular, and not especially supportive of its own. Am I asking for rampant fanboy-ism? I am not. But I am asking for one of the most celebrated developers in PC gaming history, working on one of the most celebrated franchises in PC gaming history, to at least get the respect that I think should be afforded to folks who have demonstrated, time and again, that they know what they’re doing. Grand generalizations about “what’s wrong” based on less than 15 minutes of gameplay footage that was announced, from the start, as completely subject to change…I just think it makes our community look under-educated about the hobby into which we’re so grandly sunk.
/rant
July 10th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
More like /owned AND are we EVER gonna have gaz back on the podcast? i kno he was busy with the live action film, and he’s busy with his own podcast but its been a loooooong time.
July 10th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Gaz knows he’s more than welcome to come on whenever he wants, but he hasn’t let us know when or if he plans to come back.
July 10th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
@Barduck
I am positive many of those lighting effects and graphical changes were made in response to fan reaction, which was a situation very similar to the first Starcraft http://www.sc2forums.com/terranozergus-project/180-zerg-attack-follow-up-karune-responds.html (for proof that Blizzard is listening to fan reaction to graphics)
Again, I maintain that fan participation in terms of evaluating graphical style is invaluable for any dev team.
http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc2-general&t=1&p=1&
in the massive Q&A section is a section talking about how the dev team changed the look of the siege tank in response to fans complaining it didn’t look menacing enough.
we will have to agree to disagree on that comparison picture. Unfortunately the original screenshot simply looks cartoonish to me. I felt much more like wanting to play Diablo again when I saw the second, photoshopped pic.
@Kristen
you make good points. I do respect Blizzard a lot, more than any other developer, and many of us are just paranoid that the game won’t rise to the levels of previous games in the franchise, and petitions like the one aforementioned are a way to get our feedback out; I wouldn’t call it lashing out. At least I’m not.
I would also like to add that what also makes our community look like a group of immature 14-year olds is the sleazy rhetoric and trash that’s being thrown around in these discussions, some of which I see, unfortunately, on this thread.
In fact, most of the “lashing out” I’m seeing on this thread are from people labeling all of us who are concerned about D3 graphics “whiners,” calling our concerns “crap” and “BS” and just poo-pooing the whole idea of expressing one’s opinions.
July 10th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
edit: my bad, that should read @Gunman X. Kristen’s mind tricks are so powerful that I typed what she typed
July 11th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
So wait……..you’re happy if they make Starcraft 2 look more unappealing? I don’t see your point. I think it would have been easier to just add that as a graphics option then force everyone to look at that gritty mess. But if your happy Xing out new gamers to the genre in favor of making the game look like it came out in 2003 then…….whatever? I guess that must be your plan to keep these games in your “inner circle”. Not good business sense but whatever.
July 12th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Blizzard is not trying to grow the Starcraft 2 install base; Starcraft 2 is a game catering directly to the 10-million plus fans of the original Starcraft that would like a return to the original art style, which Blizzard delivered. Take it or leave it. I’ve been a hardcore Starcraft gamer for a decade now and I could not be more happy with the updated graphics. It IS great business sense, because Blizzard knows their base for Starcraft 2 is enormous.
July 13th, 2008 at 3:36 am
@Kristen: We actually agree on many points. I do think it is way too early to tell and that so much may change between now and release. I do agree that the information that was released is sparse and there is nothing in there yet to justify a fan organized trip to Blizzard offices with pitchforks and torches. And I also agree that Blizzard deserves much respect and their ability to polish their games until they are nearly perfect is second to none.
With that said, I’d hate to see Diablo turn into single player WoW and I certainly understand where the people who are worried about it are coming from. And I still think that this emotional response to the released art is expected and is a result of the passion people have for the Diablo series and the long years of waiting for the next game in the franchise.
What I didn’t like in the podcast is the way you dismissed those fans.
And game developers can’t have it both ways. They either have passionate fan base or they don’t. They can’t expect their fans to care only when the feedback is positive. When people care, they respond to every aspect and every tiny detail of the game, justified or not. I am sure any game developer prefers it that way than to have gamers simple not care enough.
July 14th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
@Baikalic (I don’t want to clutter the new podcast thread, just got back from a trip): I can see your point, and I think the @ Kristen was for me I think you said? Either way, I can see how fan feedback can help, as the SC2 general look was really defined by the point the complaints began making sense. I actually thought the Siege tanks were undefined compared to the rest of the world as well. SC and Diablo worlds are dark places indeed, but the general reaction to D3 with such a short amount of material was what surprised me. SC2 had a LOT of models, graphics, and gameplay demos to go on, easily showing off most of the engine. D3 has much less revealed, and I believe that pushing an agenda so early is ripening the vines of misinformation and unfortunately can cause more harm than good. I don’t want to stunt vaild arguments and worries, but I don’t like seeing misinformed, or should I say under informed opinions being directed at something that they believe is part of their own property.
To cap it all off, I judged those graphics of SC2 based upon my own experiences with art detailing and the such. Could be that they used some fan criticism to guide their refinement, but I am still sure that the original screenshot was far from final detail. Same goes for D3. We’ll see, said the zen master.