PCGP Episode #177: Opinion Jar
We play Jarate with opinions this week dousing each other with reactions and theories from the games as art debate and games in politics. We also mix in the weeks news about Big Huge Games, Battle-Forge’s free-ness and WOW’s new Druid models.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
“Opinion Jar” Heh. Well done!
May 28th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
I love the debate about barring sells of mature games to kids. I was going to comment on it here but I dont really think I can state my opinion or discuss the ones given in a forum like this. But you guys really did a spot on job at having opposing views and discussing them without devolving into bickering or just contradiction. This has actually made me think it would be cool to have a debate podcast. Not from you guys but like the kind of people on debate teams discussing issues. Okay, I think I might of just exposed an odd nerd facet of myself there
May 28th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
@Lupin Saiko
If you want debates, try the Bitmob.com podcast. It’s all ex-EGM and 1-up guys. Five people, five topics. No news unless one of the topics is about a story.
May 29th, 2009 at 12:22 am
PCGAMERPODCAST!
IT’STHEPCGAMERPODCASTITHASAWESOMEPRICINGSTRUCTUREDISCUSSION!
PCGAMERPAWWWDCAAAAAST!
/macgruber
May 29th, 2009 at 12:32 am
The Terminator Salvation game is, admittedly, a rubbish game. But it was interesting that someone laughed off the fact that the game won’t work by saying “you’re missing, what, five or six hours”.
Way to fall into the Portal trap there.
May 29th, 2009 at 10:08 am
According to Scott McCloud in “Understanding Comics”, art is anything that isn’t done for survival or reproduction. I wish I could find some scans online of those pages, because it’s better than that brief summary.
May 29th, 2009 at 11:46 am
An understanding of the purpose of the First Amendment is necessary to understand why the Mature rated games laws are overturned as unconstitutional. The First Amendment is designed to allow the maximum number of ideas to be contributed to the social understanding, and that by doing so, some bad ideas would be shared along with the good. The fundamental principle is that good ideas would win over the bad ones and that Truth would prevail.
The restrictions on the sharing of these ideas (e.g. speech) must be very narrow to prevent a ‘chilling effect’ that would cause people to stop sharing ideas and creating speech.
These laws create an obvious chilling effect in that in trying to “think of the children” and protect them that adults have less access to the speech as well. Outside games, you can look at the CDA and COPA I and COPA II - laws designed to prevent children from viewing or becoming subject of pornography - all were overturned as unconstitutional because they too broadly restricted legitimate speech.
For speech to be restricted it must be shown that it has basically no value in the public discourse, like obscenity and hate speech, and that the measures taken to restrict it will not affect any other type of speech.
It’s hard to distill years of communications law into a couple of paragraphs, and I should state that I’m not a lawyer, but that’s the gist of the argument.
I’d also like to note that just because the courts overturn these laws doesn’t mean that they don’t want to protect the children, just that the laws need to be written more narrowly to prevent the restriction of free speech.
Also, parents have to watch their kids. It is not the governments job to raise your kids.
May 29th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
@Xerloq Whoa — that was a fantastic summary of the intent of the First Amendment you threw out there. Thanks! I would like to clarify, however, that I don’t think it’s the government’s job to raise children. Only that parents, as citizens, do have the right to determine what their kids are exposed to and to defend their children from commercial interests that flagrantly violate their own policies by selling M-rated games to minors. Sadly, I think the issue arises from too many vendors refusing to take responsibility, not parents.
May 29th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
I think the new Monkey Island game might be referring to this - http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/secret-of-monkey-island-for-xbox-360 - so it isn’t really new.
May 29th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Great episode!
I have to say though, the “games as art” discussion sounded like a whole lotta semantics to me. My own definition of “art” is something that is beatiful in some way, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If I enjoy something (like, say, a game) in some way, then I don’t give a crap about some arbitrary moniker someone wants to apply to it.
May 29th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Another interesting website is www.something.com much like www.isplutoaplanet.com
May 29th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Games can be artistic but I’m not sure about art.
World of goo is lovely. It has a very pretty art style and i would classify it as artistic. It’s not art though, its a game.
Can art be interactive? An example would be nice if anyone can think of something good.
May 29th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
I am jealous Evan, I havn’t gotten the huntsman yet.
May 29th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Guild wars
Am a level 8 nec monk and am looking for a guild with all sericves and would make me an officer.
Am in the first part of the game
let me know if am one wants to add me.
May 29th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Is Lego Indiana Jones 2 the game LucasArts was supposed to announce at E3? I am honestly excited for it, but I hope this isnt the announcement, I WANT TO SEE JEDI KNIGHT FOUR!!!!!
May 30th, 2009 at 3:14 am
@Jon H - Well, for one thing Portal wasn’t a $50 game, but Terminator Salvation is. We also went on to explain that Terminator is a very *repetitious* four to five hours, whereas Portal is not. So it’s not really the same thing.
@Xerloq - That’s a very good post. However, you left out a very important purpose of the First Amendment: to prevent government censorship of content it finds objectionable, such as political dissent.
Also, is it really only the breadth of these laws that gives courts their Constitutional problems with them? I know that many of them fail to define specifically what content should be banned from sale to minors and have been struck down on that basis, but even if they did, they’d run into double-standard issues compared with the lack of legal restrictions placed on the sale of all other forms of media.
@Logan - Vendors selling M-rated games to kids in no way violates a parent’s right to determine what their kids are exposed to. At least, no more than a book store selling Harry Potter books does. Violating a parent’s right to determine what their kids are exposed to would be, for example, forcing kids to play M-rated games in public schools and not allowing them to opt out if they object. What parents find acceptable for their kids to view at what age is 100% subjective, and if you were to ban stores from selling material to children that their parents *might* not want them to see, they wouldn’t be able to buy anything at all.
Thus, it must fall on the parents to keep an eye on their own kids and uphold their own standards. That’s what parenting *is,* isn’t it? And frankly I think games are one of the easiest things to monitor, considering that in the case of console games they’re usually played out in the living room in front of the family TV or on the family PC (no parent who is concerned about kids seeing questionable material would let them have their own TV or computer in their room). Besides, we really *don’t* want the government deciding what is and isn’t acceptable content for *anybody,* because they will take that ball and run with it. Can you imagine what a crazy person like John Ashcroft would have censored if he’d had the power?
@Aeshir & Pani - I should have looked this up during the podcast, but here’s Mirriam-Webster’s applicable definition of art: “The conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic object.” It’s kind of hard to argue that games don’t fit into that definition.
Finally: Freedom Force 1&2 on Steam for $6.74??? Run, don’t walk!
May 30th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Dan came and rescued this podcast from last weeks episode. YES!!!
I saw the Terminator Salvation movie and it sucked. The story was pointless. It was PG-13′d. It looked like it could have been a decent video game but apparently it’s not.
To give you a perspective on how pointless the story was, I’ll just say that Max Payne’s was more interesting than that. OUCH!
May 30th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
I don’t know what kind of masterpiece everyone was looking for from Terminator Salvation. I didn’t think it was any worse than any of the other ones. I went to see it yesterday I didn’t think it was that bad. Not Oscar worthy but I didn’t walk out feeling ripped off and I’ll probably buy it on DVD when it comes out. It held my attention far better than Transformers did that’s for sure.
May 31st, 2009 at 1:14 pm
@Dan S - It’s not about letting gov’t decide what’s acceptable content. The ESRB and it’s ratings were created and adopted by the industry! It’s about holding retailers accountable for their claims to respect and enforce those ratings. It’s about allowing communities to set their own standards and not have those standards undermined by greed.
One thing that drives me crazy is how so many people rail against bureaucrats and government intervention in the free market, but they never seem to direct that fury at the miscreants that make regulation appear necessary. Instead of sneering at all these silly attempts to pass the same law over and over again (c’mon, grandstanding - it’s what politicians do), why not direct that anger at game outlets that claim to support the ratings but fail to do so at the register? Do we support the ratings system — so far one of the very few working models of industry self-regulation — or don’t we?
Even though it appears to be defining a verb, games certainly do fit under the definition of art as “The conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic object.” But then, so do staircases, pet grooming, and integrated circuits.
May 31st, 2009 at 7:32 pm
@Stryc9
Really?
The movie ended with the war still going on. They could have skipped this movie and have made the next one and it wouldn’t have changed the story at all. Also, Why did they lower the rating to PG-13? I Want the blood, gore, violence, and nudity that made the previous movies great and R rated. Not worth $11 for a ticket and not worth $15 on dvd, maybe a $3 rental. Even then it’s +2 hours you’ll never get back in your life. Unless you can multi-task.
@Logan - Here’s a trick question. If movies and paintings are art and videogames aren’t, than what are videogames based on movies or paintings? Would that make those game’s more artistic or not?
May 31st, 2009 at 9:19 pm
I have never heard Dan so excited as when he got to shame Evan to the entire internet as a rage quitter. Dan seriously you are a sadist.
June 1st, 2009 at 1:30 am
@thegamepro8171: The first movie was the only one that really had tons of gore and about 10 seconds of nudity. The only reason T2 got an R rating was because it was fairly violent and there was quite a bit of swearing in it there was only one gory bit that comes to mind. I can’t think of any reasons why the third one deserved an R rating, it was quite tame compared to the first two.
As far as it ending with the war still going on maybe it’s just me but the Terminator franchise has finally gotten close but not quite there to what I’ve personally always wanted from a Terminator movie. Ever since I saw the first one I’ve wanted one that was set completely in the future with the humans going into a Skynet facility and in my vision ending the war but I’ll take what I can get, we may still get that part one day, it ended with a way to set up a more global war against the machines.
On topic, chronic rage quitters are assholes, but games that can go on and on past the point where a player can’t recover should as was discussed have a resign button in the exit menu. I was playing RA2 with my friend and his wife and at one point I thought they were ganging up on me in a Free For All game by letting spies into eachother’s buildings and stuff and I quit out before the game ended. Later I found out they were just using an exploit that allows the spy to force infiltrate your own Battle Lab and I felt a little less betrayed and more pissed that he went and looked that shit up.
June 1st, 2009 at 11:03 am
@Logan: The ESRB was created for the same reason as the movie ratings system. It is a self-governed and defined method of classification of maturity that creates a guideline for choices, both in the presenters and in the customers realm. It is a stop-gap to prevent government interference, which in my opinion is a more informative and effective way to utilize parental consent for mature content. The ESRB is not enforced by law, it is an industry standard meant to placate a need for information. This in itself is a highly responsible move by the gaming industry. It is NOT up to the government, or even the gaming industry, to restrict sales. It is up to the individual retailer/”presenter”/supplier, and up to the customer ultimately to determine what is acceptable to them.
The ESRB, like the MPAA ratings, are fairly clear about the suggestive content of the game, giving it an easy to understand rating, as well as a description of why its rated that. A parent walking into a store with a child should be able to quickly determine what is a yes and what is a no for their kid. Honestly, if a child who can’t handle an M game is going to a store alone and buying one, there are some problems on the home front, OR the parent gave consent.
To me, where the line gets blurred are retailers who actively try to sell M-rated games to minors. This is irresponsible but I don’t think it needs as strict rules of consequence like selling tobacco or alcohol to a minor.
June 1st, 2009 at 12:13 pm
@Logan - you seem to have switched to talking about a law like the one Andy was talking about in Utah that holds retailers accountable if they make a pledge not to sell to minors and then break it. As I said on the podcast, that kind of law makes perfect sense - it’s about keeping them honest, and applies just as much to every other promise a business makes as to ones regarding games.
But that’s entirely different from the law we were discussing - the one California is fighting to enact, which restricts access to a form of entertainment that has not conclusively been shown to be harmful to children and is, like all other creative works not found to violate the obscenity clause, protected from all government censorship by the First Amendment. And this is not about allowing communities to establish their own standards, it’s about the state trying to establish a single, uniform standard for more than 30 million people.
And I don’t think there’s anyone here who doesn’t support the ESRB rating system. THAT is what helps parents make the decisions about what their kids should and should not be playing, not heavy-handed government legislation. The one good thing that Jack Thompson ever does is to conduct his little sting operations where he sends his kid into stores to try to buy M-rated games. There should be more of those tests, and the violators should be publicly named to shame them into compliance through bad PR. You just have to show them that it will cost them more money in lost business from concerned parents than they would make selling to under-17 kids with more limited disposable income.
June 1st, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Oh, and for everyone who was guessing what our big mysterious cover story for the August issue was, those who guessed we went to Valve were right! Behold, Left 4 Dead 2:
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/e3_2009_left_4_dead_2_announced_4_new_survivors_5_new_campaigns
June 1st, 2009 at 4:32 pm
@ Dan S: I saw that and was all like OMG WOAH. Me = Excited.
Though I am a little peeved, cuz though I loved L4D, L4D2 (right now, I have no more info like you do), seems almost Madden-ish with how quickly its turning around. But its Valve, so it will probably be released in 2010.
June 1st, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Hey guys, just FYI, pcgamerpodcast.com is coming up as “malware” in Safari. Here’s a screenshot:
http://joekwon.com/_jing/jason/2009-06-01_1456.png
June 1st, 2009 at 5:16 pm
They’re saying holiday 2009 release. And while I agree that this is much sooner than I expected to see a L4D2, it’s hard to say that they’re not justified in calling this a whole new game and charging accordingly. Though it reuses the engine and mechanics, it has more content than the first one and improves on a lot of stuff (like melee weapons and blowing off zombie limbs and having them still come at you). It’s just a bit of a surprise to see Valve actually expecting to be paid for more content, since they set a precedent of giving it away.
June 1st, 2009 at 5:23 pm
@need3d - I’ve just contacted our web support guys about it again. Sorry about that.
June 1st, 2009 at 5:27 pm
yeah- i just got a warning from Google chrome of malware /trojan installations coming from this site
June 1st, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Crysis 2 confirmed!
http://pc.ign.com/articles/988/988921p1.html
It’s coming out for consoles as well and I was wondering if that is a good thing or bad thing.
I want Crysis to be a succesfull franchise and releasing it on more platforms can only help make that happen but do you think that crysis 2 will be dumbed down for all the platforms just so it can run fine on the consoles or will the pc version still remain superior over the consoles?
I really don’t want to buy anymore console ports and I hope crysis 2 will be succesful and as great as crysis 1.
I always used crysis to show off my pc’s power and I hope crysis 2 will be no different.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:53 am
L4D2 is an absolutely ridiculous announcement. The vast majority of people are pissed, and rightly so. At best, this should have been an expansion.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:54 am
[quote]It’s just a bit of a surprise to see Valve actually expecting to be paid for more content, since they set a precedent of giving it away. [/quote]
Well, the problem is that L4D didn’t feel very complete in the first place. And I think a lot of people bought the game at full price as they expected to see a lot of support for it. This is probably a slap on the face for most of them.
I was quite lucky in that a friend gave it to me as a Christmas gift. *He bought a 4 pack.
And the fact that they released this as an entirely new game feels like a business decision. Had they released this as an expansion, they would have had problems with the 360, since that platform isn’t suited for such things.
But I just can’t see any justification for a new game. It is still the same aging engine, and most of the sound and visual assets look the absolute same. There just isn’t enough meat in there to justify a new meal.
At best, I see a value of $20 in this, which is what L4D1 should have been priced at anyway… and that’s why a lot of L4D1 fans are ticked… because for them, this should have been free.
The other problem is that the game is going to be dividing the communities as well.
To be honest, I see a lot of EA and console influence in this. The lack of an ingame browser had me thinking that Valve was focused more on the console crowd, and this has me convinced.
Had the PC crowd been their primary focus, they would have at least had the game install into the first one. I just don’t want to quit every time I feel like playing the older characters or whatever.
But I could be overreacting. Maybe the game will be at $20 for owners of the original, and maybe it will integrate nicely with the first.
edit:
Well, it looks like the game is going to be $50 for the PC and $60 for the 360:
http://www.ebgames.com/browse/search.aspx?N=0&Ntk=TitleKeyword&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntt=Left%204%20Dead%202
Sorry, but that’s bull.
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:07 am
Here is the shattered promise:
http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/left_4_dead/news/valve_details_post_left_4_dead_launch_plans.html
“Intends to release new maps, characters, weapons and achievements to keep the community growing.
Left 4 Dead screenshot
Valve intends to support hotly anticipated zombie survival shooter Left 4 Dead post-release with new characters, new maps, new achievements and new weapons in order to grow the community, Gabe Newell has revealed.
Speaking to VideoGamer.com at Leipzig Games Convention, the Valve co-founder and managing director said the developer intended to follow a similar downloadable content policy as it has with Team Fortress 2.”
It is obvious what happened here, coupled with the news from R.P.S. that “L4D2″ was instantly in development after L4D1.
At some point this went from being DLC to paid content.
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:44 am
Wow, ok. Let’s calm down for just a second. Thus far, no one has broken any promises - Valve did not promise not to release a sequel within any set amount of time. They have also restated their pledge to continue to provide free content updates for L4D1, and until they fail to deliver on that it’s quite premature to state otherwise.
I just ran the numbers, and Valve is so far keeping pace with TF2 in updating L4D1. See for yourself:
TF2:
October 10, 2007 - Orange Box released
April 29, 2008 - Gold Rush / Medic update released - 6 months, 20 days from release
June 19, 2008 - Pyro update released - 8 months, 10 days from release
August 19, 2008 - Heavy update released - 10 months, 10 days from release
May 19, 2009 - Sniper vs Spy update released - 19 months, 10 days from release
L4D:
November 13, 2008 - Left 4 Dead released
April 21, 2009 - Survival pack released - 5 months, 9 days from release
Today - 6 months, 22 days since release
So, if they fail to put out a new update in the next three to four months, then you can start screaming that they’ve abandoned L4D1 and that they’ve broken promises. Until then, let’s try to be fair about throwing around accusations like that, shall we?
June 2nd, 2009 at 3:04 am
Newell said that Valve’s support of the game post-launch will be essential for growing the community.
He said: “One of the things that we’re doing is we seem to be in a transition between games as a package product and games more of a service. So if you look at Team Fortress 2, one of things that’s really helped grow the community is the continuous updates, where we release new maps, new character classes, new unlockables, new weapons. And we tell the stories about the characters, like the meet the sniper, or meet the sandwich. And that ongoing delivery of content really seems to grow the community.
“So each time we’ve released one of those for Team Fortress 2 we’ve seen about a 20% increase in the number of people who are playing online. And that number is really important because it determines how many community created maps there are, how many servers are running, and so on. So we’ll do the same thing with Left 4 Dead where we’ll have the initial release and then we’ll release more movies, more characters, more weapons, unlockables, achievements, because that’s the way you continue to grow a community over time.“
No, I am not suggesting they are abandoning L4D1 or anything. But can you seriously see Valve releasing “more movies, more characters, more weapons, unlockables, achievements” ?
I would think myself quite naive to expect that at this stage.
Obviously too early to say anything, of course, I agree. Trying not to throw wild accusations or anything, but it is almost as if they didn’t finish the work they started before they got to work on the sequel.
The game sold 2.5 million copies in a year, which is fantastic for a PC game. I am just wondering if this would have been DLC rather than L4D2, had the game not sold as well.
Again, I am just speculating…
June 2nd, 2009 at 8:18 am
Hey guys, haven’t heard this episode yet, but saw the discussion of M-Rated games and wanted to share my thoughts. If this has already been discussed, just ignore me. I’m used to it.
The thing that I simply find unbelivable: Mature games are said to be 17+, but the law restricts thier 18+… Why’s that? I’m 17, and my parents are okay with me getting L4D, but when I go to Target to buy it, I’m rejected because I’m not 18 yet. How can the ESRB justify saying that Mature = 17+, when the laws are saying 18+…?
June 2nd, 2009 at 8:50 am
Whats your problem with a L4D sequal? If you think it’s not going to be worth $50 because you think it’s just an expansion then you don’t have to buy it. The PC gamers are lucky to recieve as much free content as we did from valve since that the console gamers are always being forced to pay $10 for every small peice of content while we get treated with free expansion sized DLC every several months. I’m sure that L4D 2 will be more than just L4D1 with more content. Since that it’s being hyped up as a sequal, it should offer something completely new that can’t be accomplished with auto updates.
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:18 am
Whats your problem with a L4D sequal? If you think it’s not going to be worth $50 because you think it’s just an expansion then you don’t have to buy it
Consumers like you are the problem. It is a sequel to a game not a year old which means it divides the community. In a sense, such a quick sequel lowers the quality of the first and it means more divided developer attention.
he PC gamers are lucky to recieve as much free content as we did from valve since that the console gamers are always being forced to pay $10 for every small peice of content while we get treated with free expansion sized DLC every several months.
By that analogy, Canadians should be happy if their health care system suddenly gets worse, because it is already pretty bad in their neighboring country.
DLC for L4D isn’t a favor. I am not asking for a favor. L4D was extremely short and sparse and marketed at $50 with the promise that the game would get more fleshed out as time progressed.
Your arguments don’t make sense.
If consumers don’t ask for their rights, they will continue to suffer from DRM that phones home every 10 seconds, and guys like you will continue to pay $100 for HDMI cables when they cost $2 everywhere else in the world.
Since that it’s being hyped up as a sequal, it should offer something completely new that can’t be accomplished with auto updates
So far the hype doesn’t nearly meet the product. From all the previews I’ve seen, it looks like an expansion — and that’s absolutely stretching it.
Again, I am just speculating. Like Dan said, Valve probably has no intention of dropping support for the first game.
Having said that, if that *is* the case, then releasing L4D2 as a competing product to L4D1 seems like a conflict of interests.
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:49 am
One more for the games as art debate: I hate those Ebert and Roeper d-bags, and how they say games can’t be art because they’re interactive. So if movies can be art because they’re not interactive, then why do they opt for the best experience watching them, in the theater with surround sound, instead of going the cheap-ass route?
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:37 pm
@Pugnate - Wouldn’t a retail expansion or paid DLC have an identical effect in terms of dividing the community?
Also, consider this: any new campaigns released for one game could, in theory, work on the other as well. Valve told us that the director can populate any map with zombies from either game, so Valve could support both games simultaneously with the same new content.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:57 pm
I worry the same way Pugnate does. Its not an OMG VALVE YOU SUCK I WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO LIVE statement, its a general fear that Valve might be rushing one of their best selling pc/console games that relies on its community too fast.
For me, if L4D2 integrates LIKE an expansion into L4D1, then I will be happy, so when I play a game with a group of buddies, and we get sick of playing in one movie, we can vote to go to L4D1 movie etc etc.
It’s too early to say anything, but without lateral integration, I can’t see L4D2 being very popular with PC gamers.
Side note: Hey Dan, are you are E3 currently?
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:16 pm
I am not, no. I have more pressing matters to attend to this week.
June 2nd, 2009 at 3:42 pm
@ Dan: Who (if anyone) is at E3 then this week? There has been some pretty solid pressies from the big three, is the actual convention still anything worthwhile. It at least seems better than last year.
June 2nd, 2009 at 4:25 pm
We’ve got Gary and Evan representing us at the show. And yes, it seems like E3 has recovered from the dismal scene of the past couple of years - people are actually announcing things there.
June 2nd, 2009 at 6:12 pm
All I can remember is Nintendo. *shiver*. Not a lot of big PC announcements other than L4D2 and Crysis 2. Yet of course.
June 2nd, 2009 at 10:42 pm
You guys have got to do a Podcast this week. So much to talk about:
left 4 dead 2
Dragon Age
Mass Effect 2
Crysis 2
DJ Hero (just kidding)
Assasins Creed 2
Huxley
Lost Planet 2 (maybe)
Star Wars The Old Republic (how could I forget)
Modern Warfare 2
Supreme Commander 2
Homefront
Splinter Cell Conviction
Alan Wake (not canned yeah)
And probably more i’ve missed. And you could talk about Mass Effect Galaxy.
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:26 am
Mother LeChucking Monkey Island! Made E3 a spectacular hit in my eyes. Already pre-ordered the season
June 3rd, 2009 at 3:10 am
@Pugnate - Wouldn’t a retail expansion or paid DLC have an identical effect in terms of dividing the community?
I don’t see how.
People still play Company of Heroes with each other even when they all don’t own the same expanded content, but if you had CoH1 and CoH2, that required separate loading etc., then it wouldn’t be the same thing…
Anyway I just read this and it just rubs me the wrong way:
http://www.joystiq.com/2009/06/02/left-4-dead-2-will-last-much-longer-as-a-platform/
Left 4 Dead 2 … already? It’s a question that Valve’s Chet Faliszek has undoubtedly been answering all day. Wary of the negative connotations that come with annual franchises, Faliszek gave us a candid explanation. Put simply, Valve wasn’t entirely satisfied with the original game. “Left 4 Dead 1, like I said, had some of those fundamental things that we wanted to change about it, like the changes to the director, which took really long periods of time and a really long period of testing,” he said. “And so, those changes fell in line with the long period of time it takes to create characters and everything else. That’s why we’re doing Left 4 Dead 2, right?”
A more refined game will also set the stage for a longer lifespan, with Faliszek having no qualms calling the EA-published Left 4 Dead 2 a platform, one that Valve sees “lasting for a much longer period of time” via updates and DLC. “We haven’t decided anything yet, obviously, but we’re looking at it and looking at Left 4 Dead 2 as being that platform to build on.” There’s a caveat, of course: “I would say definitely there’s some stuff I think, like world-wise and location-wise, that we’re saying, ‘No, this isn’t going to fit in this one, let’s put this aside and maybe come back and revisit it.’”
Valve hopes to produce more incentive for revisiting Left 4 Dead 2, with a new gameplay mode — in addition to the unrevealed one shipping with the game — already being considered. “There’s a lot of ideas that we can start playing around with. But we first need to get this first layer down and settle it.” We’ll be settling the score with the zombie menace on November 17th.
That just seems like a whole lot of PR spin to me.
Also, consider this: any new campaigns released for one game could, in theory, work on the other as well. Valve told us that the director can populate any map with zombies from either game, so Valve could support both games simultaneously with the same new content.
Yes, you are correct. Let’s see. Valve have shown tremendous support for TF2, so well, let’s see. I’ve already expressed my reservations of a full priced sequel to an incomplete predecessor, so there is little point in going over that again. It is all in the future.
On the subject of E3, it is back with a bang isn’t it? Tons of announcements.
Anyone else not completely convinced by the PSPGO?
Also, I really want to see a full fledged expansion for Company of Heroes.
So far I am really looking forward to Dragon Age, being an old school RPG guy like Desslock.
June 3rd, 2009 at 4:42 am
On the subject of Dragon Age, anyone else a little unhappy with the marketing direction so far?
What we’ve seen is a whole lot of emphasis on SEX AND VIOLENCE with some crappy Manson music, and not enough of what we want from Dragon Age (the same thing we got from BG2 and PS:T) — a deep and immersive world.
Read this:
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/58986
Unfortunately, beyond the controls, I came away from the Dragon Age E3 demo feeling oversold–particularly on its sexuality–and ultimately underwhelmed.
The presentation began with lead designer Mike Laidlaw spending ten minutes explaining how players can have sex in the game. There was no lead-up to this segment, mind you. This was the headline topic. This was the new shit.
I realize it is the EA marketing machine, but come on, we get it. IT HAS TEH SEX!
How about showing us some of the good stuff that makes an RPG.
Anyway, I know I sound like Mr.Negative here, so to balance the scales I will talk about something positive.
….
…
..
…..
I’ve got one! Hey that Monkey Island 1 remake looks FANTASTIC doesn’t it?
http://www.giantbomb.com/tales-of-monkey-island-trailer/17-716/
June 3rd, 2009 at 9:09 am
@Pugnate
Come on man. It’s Left for Dead 2!!! It’s only going to be better than the first and besides, who said that Valve isn’t going to support both games simultaniously with free DLC?
If you won’t buy it, fine, but I will and I will enjoy the living sh*t out of it!!!
June 3rd, 2009 at 11:47 am
@ Pugnate: There is a pretty decent interview at Shacknews (they always seem to have the best news from Valve on the internets): http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1138
I think L4D2 will be good. I just am a little skeptical about its VALUE, I will not boycott it, since I think L4D1 had great value, maybe not quite 50 bucks worth on paper, but I certainly got almost 100 hours (and counting) from it. The SDK being released so late, and only right before the announcement of L4D2 is dissapointing, since now, unless lateral SDK usage between the two titles is absolutely confirmed (which SHOULD be done soon), the L4D1 community will suffer from that difference. If L4D2 can integrate with L4D1 for owners of the original, L4D2 will assuage my complaints for sure. That would be excellent.
I have a vague, no chance in hell of actually coming true, feeling that Valve might surprise us with L4D2 coming in the Orange Box 2 with Ep3 and Portal 3. I can only hope and pray. 2007 was a great year for gaming (when the Orange Box came out, and Crysis, and STALKER, and the Witcher, and CoD4, and…). In fact, I am STILL trying to catch up to 2008 in games!
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:29 pm
@Pugnate - Yes, owners of the three CoH games can play the standard MP mode together. However, they cannot play on maps or modes that are unique to one game or another unless everybody has that same version, so the community is just as fragmented as the L4D community will be by some people owning L4D2 and others not. (I expect that there will be relatively few people that will buy L4D2 that haven’t also bought L4D1.)
Putting out ANY form of non-free content will create the same divide in the community, since suddenly there will be a bunch of people playing games that others can’t join. The only difference, as you mention, is loading each game separately, which takes what, 20 seconds? That’s a slight inconvenience, and hardly something to curse Vavle’s name for.
Let’s try thinking about L4D2 another way: as a DLC bundle. Would you pay $10 for a new L4D campaign that’s longer than any of the existing ones and included new survivors, new weapons and new zombies? This is five of those together.
@GunmanX Valve told us that maps created for one game will work in the other, so you can consider that confirmed.
June 3rd, 2009 at 3:15 pm
I liked L4D, I think i’ll like the 2nd.(Valve normally gets it right) I kinda wish they would say something about a new Halflife exp, or new one period. You guys were at valve did they say anything you can repeat here?
http://store.steampowered.com/news/2552/
“Introducing the AI Director 2.0, L4D’s dynamic gameplay is taken to the
next level by giving the Director the ability to procedurally change
weather effects, world objects, and pathways in addition to tailoring
the enemy population, effects, and sounds to match the players’
performance. The result is a unique game session custom fitted to
provide a satisfying and uniquely challenging experience each time the
game is played”
June 3rd, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Yea when I made that comment about dividing the community, I didn’t realize the maps would be compatible, so certainly that will help. But it isn’t just about compatibility for me. Yes, it takes only 20 seconds, but it is a bit of psychological thing. I can’t imagine people who own UT3 divide their time between that and UT2005, only because that’s where some of their friends are. And I don’t see a whole lot of people playing EQ1 and EQ2 at the same time.
Will people who own L4D2 really quit and start L4D1 because of some of their friends? Like you said, time will tell, but most gamers either want to play the latest iteration or nothing at all.
By dividing I just didn’t mean in the sense that people will have their loyalties caught between the two L4D titles, but rather, that a lot of people will *not* buy L4D2 because of a sense of betrayal, and thus will naturally and suddenly lose interest in L4D1.
Again, time will tell, and I could be totally wrong, but I haven’t seen such anger on the internet since the Spore backlash. Yes, I know, the internet has a tendency to get pissy, and it isn’t anything new, but come on, this is Valve, the darling of the PC gaming community. Everywhere I have seen, whether it be the comments sections of the various gaming tabloids (Kotaku, Shacknews etc), or the official Valve forums, the anger has been severe. Frankly, I haven’t seen people this upset with Valve, since the first day of STEAM.
It is almost as if people are reacting like they caught their wife in bed with their brother (I mean normal people, a redneck would probably find that situation normal). The majority is expressing a sentiment of anger and betrayal. Hell, I am actually seeing the console gamers console (pun?) the PC fans.
So, yea, I do think this will divide the community… but like you said, who knows, it is all in the future. The fact is that Valve still have plenty of time to offer incentives to their L4D fanbase. And they could still reinforce their support to the original L4D game.
To be honest, it is difficult to predict what will happen, because this whole thing is a little unprecedented. I can’t remember the last time a full priced community focused multiplayer game, suddenly launched a sequel in less than a year… does anyone else?
Valve just aren’t helping their cause by making statements like they expect the L4D2 platform to last longer. What does that even mean? That L4D1 is dying? The people who really can extend L4D1’s lifespan are Valve, and they are looking less interested.
Let’s try thinking about L4D2 another way: as a DLC bundle. Would you pay $10 for a new L4D campaign that’s longer than any of the existing ones and included new survivors, new weapons and new zombies? This is five of those together.
That’s like paying full price for a half a car because the car dealer promised the other half down the line, only to see the other half come out next year again at full price. Would it be so crazy to expect that other half for free, or even at a hugely discounted price, even though you already set the trend by paying full price for the first half?
You wouldn’t call a farmer crazy for buying a horse for $50 and a wagon for another $50 unless you knew that the market price for those two was $100.
Look, I do realize that PC gamers love to whine. And I do realize that a lot of us have a lot of false sense of entitlement, but the vast majority of us did buy L4D because we were told that its content would expand to a level that reflected well with the pricing.
And when it comes down to it, this isn’t a tangible object like a car or a fridge. If I bought a 2000 model car, I wouldn’t lose it with the release of every new model, since it wouldn’t affect the usefulness of my purchase.
But this is a piece of software. The psychology behind the thing is different. Most of us, in most situations, want to play the latest. I know a lot of people still play the original Counterstrike, or the original UT, or Quake 2, or even use Windows 98, but the vast majority want to use the latest iteration…
It is a big reason why EA sports games sales have dropped so heavily. People don’t want to buy Fifa 2008 only to buy a minimally improved sequel in another year.
Anyway, I am lucky to have gotten L4D as a gift — who did pay full price. And I will probably end up buying L4D2 when it is at $20 or so… anyway let’s see what the future holds.
BTW, I hope I don’t sound pissy or anything. I do normally dislike any false sense of entitlement, but in this case I understand. In the end, it isn’t just that Valve set a high standard of generosity with their TF2 support, but it turns down to a broken promise:
Gabe: So we’ll do the same thing with Left 4 Dead where we’ll have the initial release and then we’ll release more movies, more characters, more weapons, unlockables, achievements, because that’s the way you continue to grow a community over time.“
June 3rd, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Oh no. How could I forget Monkey Island. Am i correct in saying the remake of the original lets you play it in old graphics and with new. I never played any monkey island games so that’s probably why I forgot the new ones.
June 3rd, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Oh yeah and dragon age. I don’t like the marketing angle they’re taking, on the other hand I’m still excited about what they’ve shown off before. I just hope the game isn’t to gory/pornographic (to quote fox news) because I’ll cry if it gets an R18 rating here in NZ and I can’t get it.
June 3rd, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Ya the remake looks interesting and you can switch back and forth between the new art and the old. I’m super blown away about the new episodic ones, and July 7th is so soon.
June 3rd, 2009 at 7:57 pm
July 7th is ridiculously soon. We won’t even have time to play all 4 previous games before its released! I cannot understate my anticipation for Tales of Monkey Island. Dominic Armato is back as Guybrush’s voice and if the writers can nail the humor of the original games, this will be a godsend for all old school adventure gamers.
@Andy B. You fight like a dairy farmer.
June 3rd, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Pugnate, you nailed it. What Gabe said was one of the reasons people adore Valve. I’m really shocked to see them announce L4D2 so soon, this isn’t something I’d ever think Valve would do. They obviously made too much money on console and pc, and just couldn’t help themselves. What’s even more discerning is the fact that there’s zero info on HL2Ep3. Who would have thought Valve would release L4D2 before Ep3? Safe to say, nobody. Who even thought Valve would even make a second for the next 10 years. Definitely not too excited for this at all. Lombardi was on IGN and Gamespot earlier live, and he confirmed that the SDK will work equally for both, but you cannot use the campaigns between the two, you’d have to exit the game and load up the other. A pain, but much more of a pain for the console community, that’s for sure.
June 4th, 2009 at 2:33 am
“You wouldn’t call a farmer crazy for buying a horse for $50 and a wagon for another $50 unless you knew that the market price for those two was $100.”
I really should read my posts before posting. That last number was supposed to be 50.
“What’s even more discerning is the fact that there’s zero info on HL2Ep3. ”
I think that’s another reason why people are ticked.
“Lombardi was on IGN and Gamespot earlier live, and he confirmed that the SDK will work equally for both, but you cannot use the campaigns between the two, you’d have to exit the game and load up the other.”
That’s terrible.
June 4th, 2009 at 2:45 am
“Oh no. How could I forget Monkey Island. Am i correct in saying the remake of the original lets you play it in old graphics and with new. I never played any monkey island games so that’s probably why I forgot the new ones. ”
Watch that Giantbomb vid I posted. It is very good and shows that you can!
But yea, July 7th is really close. Let’s hope this sells a gazillion copies so that they do the same with Monkey Island 2.
“Oh yeah and dragon age. I don’t like the marketing angle they’re taking, on the other hand I’m still excited about what they’ve shown off before. I just hope the game isn’t to gory/pornographic (to quote fox news) because I’ll cry if it gets an R18 rating here in NZ and I can’t get it. ”
You are a Kiwi?
Yea, I relaxed myself by thinking it is all part of the marketing and the real game will be story focused RPG.
June 4th, 2009 at 4:40 am
No, I just said that, Duh!
Yeah it’s almost like they liked the fox news “scandal”. I guess it was good publicity. It made me want to buy mass effect just because the “interview” was so crappy and biased.
June 4th, 2009 at 7:10 am
Just to say: Logan is right about restricting kids access to inappropriate material…But then he is right about most things.
Kids don’t (or at least shouldn’t) get to decide what they consume in the same way as they don’t get to vote. Kids are only children, they don’t have the perspective to weigh things up rationally.
Great podcast, as usual
Cheers,
Simon (Father of two)
June 4th, 2009 at 10:26 am
SOUND OFF on today’s PC Gamer Podcast! Left 4 Dead 2: Awesome, or too much too soon? (877) 404-1337 x724.
June 4th, 2009 at 10:27 am
SOUND OFF on today’s PC Gamer Podcast! Will Leonardo’s inventions blow away the annoying repetition of the first game? (877) 404-1337 x724.
June 4th, 2009 at 10:28 am
SOUND OFF on today’s PC Gamer Podcast! So Commander Sheppard wasn’t dead. Anybody surprised? (877) 404-1337 x724.
June 4th, 2009 at 10:28 am
SOUND OFF on today’s PC Gamer Podcast! Will The Old Republic be better than the single player games? (877) 404-1337 x724.
June 4th, 2009 at 10:29 am
SOUND OFF on today’s PC Gamer Podcast! Monkey Island — is this a dream come true for you? (877) 404-1337 x724.
June 4th, 2009 at 10:30 am
FINAL | SOUND OFF on today’s PC Gamer Podcast! Crysis 2 multiplatform: Good for gamers, not so good, or no big diff? (877) 404-1337 x724.
June 4th, 2009 at 10:30 am
FINAL FOR REAL THIS TIME | SOUND OFF on today’s PC Gamer Podcast! Final Fantasy XIV? Game, or lame? (877) 404-1337 x724.
June 4th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Pick up those phones and call and get on the PC Gamer Podcast! Remember, if people don’t know about you, they can’t send you free money in the mail!!!
June 4th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
“No, I just said that, Duh!
Yeah it’s almost like they liked the fox news “scandal”. I guess it was good publicity. It made me want to buy mass effect just because the “interview” was so crappy and biased. ”
Well, good luck in the 20/20 world cup.
Regarding the no publicity is bad publicity thing, I think this whole “sex & violence” is working on the console centric masses.
I remember most reactions to those ridiculous Dragon Age trailers were along the lines of OMG IT IS TEH 300
June 4th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
I just started playing Eve Online and I remembered hearing that one of you guys was going to make up a beginners guide a few podcasts back.. Anyways just wondering if that was ever released!
June 4th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Hmm, either Avast isn’t working or your tech guys killed the trojan that lived here for the past few weeks.
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/8904/trojanpcg.jpg
Time to catch up on podcasts.
June 4th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
come with me, if you want the disc
hahahaha…
So I just heard the podcast. It was almost eerie listening to Logan talk about whiners after the discussion that took place in this comments section.
I just want to mention that it is crazy how Logan matched my own thoughts regarding the Apple iPod refund bitching. That has been pretty much what I’ve said all along regarding those refunds. I thought it was just a whole lot of bitchin’ and whinging, and was even a bit ticked when they got those partial refunds.
I normally buy my cellphones from Europe or Asia, and am used to dramatic price slashes. THERE IS A REASON WHY YOU ARE PAYING THE PREMIUM: BRAGGING RIGHTS PEOPLE!
(Wow, that sounds like a line from Paris Hilton)
I think the other thing is that the iPhone is the first world class phone to come out first in the US of A. Normally the best cellphones hit Europe and Asia first, and then the US of A many years after. No really… when I travel to the states from Europe, I am normally shocked at how old the phone models are over there… well except for Motorola… That seems to debut its latest models in the US first.
But anyway, I guess Americans just aren’t used to the way the cell phone market works. In Europe, top of the line cellphones always drop 20-30% in price a few months after hitting the market. It is just the nature of the beast. Rich idiots…err.. wealthy consumers who buy 800EUR Nokia N series phones do so with the realization that those phones will drop in value very soon. These consumers still buy them for bragging rights or whatever.
So yea, I was pretty shocked by all the whinging that went on over the iPhone price drop. Being used to such fluctuations in the mobile market, I felt a lot of it was senseless whinging.
So I do agree with Logan there. That being said, I find that a totally different situation from what happened with L4D.
edit:
Should mention, that I am not one of those guys who pay 800 EUR for cellphones. Just pointing out how the market works.
June 4th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
“Well, good luck in the 20/20 world cup. ”
Cheers!
“Kids don’t (or at least shouldn’t) get to decide what they consume in the same way as they don’t get to vote. Kids are only children, they don’t have the perspective to weigh things up rationally.”
So, I’m sixteen, Do I still fall into that area? I think I can make rational descisions about what I think is suitable to play.
Oh yeah, @Dan. I know I should like Fallout 3 all the branching plot lines and stuff but i’m not enjoying it as much as Mass Effect (onto 4th playthrough). Am i missing something? PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME!!!
June 4th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
We just podcasted. Now we have to clean up the mess.
Sorry about the Trojan problem! We appear to have finally gotten to the bottom of things and the site was indeed tainted by hacker filth. We kept stomping it out and it kept coming back. The problem, as it turns out, has to do with some outdated plugins in use on the site that are insecure. We could fix the problem right away, but we’d have to blow away the contents of the site to do so.
Instead, we’re going to fix the problem while maintaining the contents of the site, but that will take a bit longer. Please bear with us and thanks for your patience. In the meantime, don’t open those PDFs, and make sure Acrobat Reader isn’t your default PDF reader!
In other news, am I really liking The Sims 3 this much?
Logan
June 4th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Valve have responded to the “rumblings”:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/06/04/valve-on-l4d2-trust-us-a-little-bit/
Hmmmmmmm…..
Also:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/06/before-its-time-valve-explains-left-4-dead-sequel-to-ars.ars
So the team brought their concepts and ideas to create a sequel to Gabe Newell, and even he was skeptical about the idea. According to Faliszek, he expressed his doubts, and claimed this move was against the character of the company. “To Gabe’s credit, and he’s a great guy to work for, he said if this is what you want to do, if this is what you’re excited about, go do it.”
Both links are excellent reads! I suggest them to everyone.
June 4th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
So I guess Newell’s giant gut suggested it wasn’t a good idea.
June 4th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Hey guys,
Back from E3, just wanted to note one thing–we interviewed Valve at the expo, and they encouraged us that they’ll continue to support L4D1, and that we’ll be hearing about new content coming next week. I’ll wrangle our interview together and we’ll get the details straight next week, in addition to covering everything Gary and I saw at E3.
June 5th, 2009 at 2:37 am
Thanks for the update Evan.
September 30th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Nice communist star logo you got there! Why the hell not use the communist open source Aotuv Vorbis 5.7 at 32 kbps or if you really want to be speech grade….Speex 1.2 at 24 Kbps. Your mp3 files are huge! Vorbis is the ‘Firefox audio format’ to stupid people not me. Damn you! Or maybe 20 Kbps heaacv2.
http://mediacoder.hq.com
http://rarewares.org